Talk:Hans Langsdorff

Did Langsdorff commit suicide?

I am not sure whether I should put it in the article, but in "La vraie vie d'Eva Peron" by Silvain Reiner (a documentry biography) I found the note about the La Plata battle and Hans Langsdorff. The author states that the suicide of Captain Langsdoff was faked. The only witnesses of putting Langsdorff's body into coffin were asailor from Admiral Graf Spee - Fisher and German attache. There was no doctor to confirm the death. In 1941 the coffin was transported to Germany and put in Gorlow (East Prussia), but when at the and of the war a group of allies' officers went there (they wanted to honour him, because he was respected by the enemies) it turned out that the coffin was empty. It is also said that Juan Peron had captain Langsdorff his guest in Calle Posadas. The book is not fiction, although everything looks much like conspiracy theory. Juan Peron might have invented the story or might have been misled by a fraud. On the other hand if Langsdorff wanted to commit suicide - he could have commited it immediately, not waiting two days.

Maybe other users can comment on it.

I also remember a film (British production on the Battle at the Rio de la Plata). The film was fiction, based on a true story. It said nothing about the suicide (real or faked). Maybe someone is able to say more about the film (it must be older than 1981, because that was the date I saw it on TV). Jasra 20:50, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

The film is The Battle of the River Plate (film), which I have just watched, it ends shortly after the scuttling, with no mention of what happens to Langsdorf afterwards. DuncanHill 18:52, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that any photos of his dead body were taken but it was widely reported at the time that he had committed suicide wrapped in the battle ensign from the Graf Spee. It was the old German Navy flag, not the Nazi flag. See main article. He waited a few days before committing suicide because he wanted to see all his men to safety first -- SteveCrook 14:03, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

As far as his family is aware, he did commit suicide Langsdorff11 (talk) 14:36, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

"Nazi" who committed suicide?

Is Langsdorff correctly categorised under "Category:Nazis who committed suicide"? Is there any evidence he was a Nazi party member?

As I recall, there is much circumstantial evidence that he was not a Nazi (by conviction, at any rate). For example, his omission to give the Nazi salute at the funeral of his men - see http://www.maritimequest.com/daily_event_archive/2005/dec/17_admiral_graf_spee.htm

And also the fact that he committed suicide in the presence of the "kaiserlichen Reichskriegsflagge" (Imperial German flag, without the swastika).

Shouldn't he be removed from the "Category:Nazis who committed suicide" category? Todowd 19:01, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Agree. So you can remove him from this category. Jasra 22:56, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Death or Suicide

There's a sub-section headed "Death or Suicide". Is there any doubt that it was suicide? If there is then it should be mentioned. If there isn't then the heading should be changed -- SteveCrook 14:57, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Picture of Langsdorff saluting

The thing I missed the most in this article is the picture of Hans Langsdorff saluting at the funeral of his shipmates who had died at the battle of the river plate. Very telling is that everyone uses the 'Nazi salute', even the priests, except for Langsdorff who uses the 'normal' military salute. Another indicator that he wasn't a die-hard Nazi. As mentioned in the 'nazi who committed suicide piece' above. Sorry to have mentioned it again 212.136.56.20 11:01, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

What did the 'lucky hit' destroy ?

Article text says

This shell destroyed steam boilers needed to operate the ship’s fuel cleaning system

[Battle of River Plate] article repeats this, adding that this went un-revealed for 60 years
40 years ago, the standard version of why the Graf Spee was scuttled was that a lucky hit by a British shell had destroyed the Graf Spee's desalination equipment, leaving it with only ready stocks of drinking water, so that any further ocean-going was out of the question.
The fresh revelation looks much like the accepted wisdom of 40 years ago but with the nature of the lucky hit changed. Looking around at other websites, there seems general agreement that the desalination plant and kitchens were wrecked; relatively few mention oil-purification. I would have thought loss of desalination was the real show-stopper. Any thoughts? Rjccumbria (talk) 18:05, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

The diesel fuel that ships used then (and largely still today) is much less refined than the product that is used in cars etc. The quantity of solids in the fuel is much higher and often so is the amount of water. If the fuel were fed in it's raw state into a high compression (diesel) engine it would cause serious damage which would eventualy disable or even destroy the engine. The solids would cause rapid wear of the injection nozzles which would reduce their efficiency and increase fuel consumption. Also if the solids were of a type not consumed in the combustion process (eg. sand) they would damage the cylinder walls and/or the exhaust valves. Water in the fuel when it turned to steam could cause damage to the engine through over-pressure, or through forcing it's way past the piston rings down into the engine sump contaminating the lubricating oil.

To remove the contamination several steps are taken in a ship's fuel supply system. First the fuel is taken from the bunker (bulk storage) tanks and put into a settling tank. As it's name suggests the fuel is allowed to lay undisturbed in the tank so the the heavy soilds and the bulk of the water being more dense will settle to the bottom. To speed the process the tank is heated using steam coils - pipes running through the fuel heated by steam from a boiler. On most ships the fuel will be in the settling tank for about 24 hours and the tank will hold slightly more than 24 hours fuel at maximum consumption.

For the next stage of the process, the fuel is heated to a higher temperature - again usually by steam coils in a thing similar to a water heater. It is then passed into a centrifuge (usually called a separator by ship's crews) which spins the fuel at high speed and causes the soilds and water to be separated from the good fuel. The cleaned fuel is then passed into a service tank which holds slightly over 24 hours consuption at maximum power.

The heat for this process as stated before is almost always steam. The boiler may use heat recovered from the engine exhaust or it may be separately fired using oil burners. Either way it will require a supply of distilled water as the use of anything else in the boiler will cause rapid deterioration of it's heating capacity and in all probability total failure through corrosion or poor circulation resulting in localized hot-spots.

Regarding the Graf Spee, it would not have mattered if the de-salination plant (which supplied water for the boiler), the boiler itself, or the fuel processing plant was destroyed, the result would have been the same. The ship would have been restricted to using firstly any fuel remaining in the service tank. The length of the action plus a rough guess at how much fuel was refined during the day pretty much coincides with the 16 hours fuel quoted as remaining to the ship (in the service tank) when it got to Montivedeo. After that they would probably get away with using the fuel from the settling tank - so another 24 hours. Then as they fed uncleaned fuel to the engines, taken from the bunker tanks, the ships speed would fall and the cumulative damage would destroy the engines. Without the intervention of the Royal navy I would guess they might manage to steam for 7 days before all the engines failed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.112.61.202 (talk) 21:25, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

A slight problem with the newly discovered information regarding this fuel problem is that Exeter hits Graf Spee during the morning, between 0615 & 0640. Graf Spee finally makes port at after midnight the next day, 18 hours later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Revisionist99 (talk • contribs) 12:25, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

There were several additional problems Langsdorff had to consider, one being a damaged engine mount. Joseph Gilbey enumerates in his book, "Langsdorff of the Graf Spee." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.75.26.77 (talk) 01:00, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Battle of the River Plate section -- amendment

I have amended slightly the 2nd para of this section. In the original draft it reads as though it was Germany which gave Langsdorff the various options as to what action he could take upon sailing out of Montevideo. In actual fact, Germany only told him that the ship was not to fall into enemy hands. The actual options were entirely Langsdorff's own considerations.

207.47.210.54 (talk) 03:16, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

External links

Please add the following uploaded by National Geographic, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1BU_GyiDNw

(btw, it contains considerable relevant info not in this article) ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 (talk) 21:37, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit observing coincidental events

As other editor(s) remarked, a coincidental event is trivia and should not be included in the biography. It is an editorial type remark, I do not see RS for it, and WP seeks to provide a general summary of life events, not an extensive retelling. Omit this material and leave present version as is. – S. Rich (talk) 02:27, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Also, I have suggested to the other interested editor that commenting here, on the article talk page, is a better alternative than edit warring. Perhaps there is some other type of phrasing for the article that will work. (No one version or syntax is the end-all and be-all of prose.) But without discussion, here, the article text should stay as is. – S. Rich (talk) 04:55, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

When, and with which ensign?

The disagreements over the circumstances of Kapitän Langsdorff's death, in particular the date on which it occurred and the flag involved, are refected by inconsistencies among three relevant Wikipedia articles.

In this article Langsdorff died on 20 December 1939. The "Suicide" section's third paragraph description of how he ". . . lay on Admiral Graf Spee's battle ensign and shot himself," presumably refers to the then-current Reichskriegsflagge. However, the source material cited[1] does not provide a date and states only "[A]fter leading the crew into safe internment, Langsdorff shot himmself." Also, is the citation given for this material complete? Thomas Adam is the editor of the entire three volume work but the author of the entry "Admiral Graf Spee" is Holger M. Meding.

According to Battle of the River Plate, ". . . Captain Langsdorff committed suicide by gunshot on 19 December," but this statement, as well as the entire section of the article in which it appears, "Trap of Montevideo," already needs additional citations for verification.

German cruiser Admiral Graf Spee, is much better documented and considered Good. The fourth paragraph of section "Scuttling" begins "[O]n 20 December, in his room in a Buenos Aires hotel, Langsdorff shot himself, dressed in full dress uniform and lying on the ship's battle ensign," presumably, again, the Reichskriegsflagge. The source cited, Bidlingmaier, appears both credible and interesting but also out of print. Also, the phraseology might be improved slightly; perhaps "while dressed .. . ."?

My primary interest is vexillological. Like others here, I too have read that Langsdorff's body was found with some version of the 1871-1918 Kaiserliche Kriegsflagge. I first learned this when I was quite young from a YA-type history of World War II that described his wrapping himself in an old Imperial German ensign, "an insult to Hitler," before shooting himself. It made a strong impression but the story appears to have been forgotten. I have not found any reliable accounts. Many recent articles, e.g., those regarding the 2004 salvage efforts, mention Kapitän Langsdorff only in passing and flags not at all. A BBC article[2] even locates his suicide in a "Buenos Aires naval camp".

I would like to consult Bidlingmaier's book, which some online vendors carry as used but websites offering electronic versions set off my security applications and the nearest public copy I can find is over 500 miles away. I have been unable to research this incident well enough and I should be grateful for any suggestions or links to more reliable versions of the story. Vex Delay (talk) 20:36, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

"Battle of the River Plate." Wikipedia. Wikimedia Foundation, 29 Apr. 2014. Web. 21 May 2014. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_River_Plate>.

Bidlingmaier, Gerhard. Km Admiral Graf Spee: Pocket Battleship 1932-1939. Windsor, England: Profile Publications, 1971.

"German Cruiser Admiral Graf Spee." Wikipedia. Wikimedia Foundation, 16 Apr. 2014. Web. 21 May 2014. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_cruiser_Admiral_Graf_Spee>.

"Graf Spee's Eagle Rises from Deep." BBC News. BBC, 02 Oct. 2006. Web. 21 May 2014. <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4702832.stm>.

"Hans Langsdorff." Wikipedia. Wikimedia Foundation, 28 Apr. 2014. Web. 21 May 2014. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Langsdorff>.

Meding, Holger M. "Admiral Graf Spee." Germany and the Americas: Culture, Politics, and History: A Multidisciplinary Encyclopedia. Ed. Thomas Adam. Vol. 3. Santa Barbara, Calif.: ABC-CLIO, 2005. 45-47. Germany and the Americas: O-Z. Google Books, 2012. Web. 21 May 2014. <http://books.google.com/books?id=8uxfTF4Lm-kC&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45#v=onepage&q&f=false>.

Just in case it helps, nearly sixty years ago I watched on our new television a historical program, narrated by Walter Cronkite, about the Battle of the River Plate, which said that when everything else had been taken care of Captain Langsdorff wrapped himself in the war ensign of the German Empire (Second Reich, not Third!), put the muzzle of his revolver in his mouth, and pulled the trigger. Perhaps as he fell the flag unwrapped, and he landed recumbent on it? J S Ayer (talk) 23:45, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

This was presumably the CBS program The 20th Century, Season 5, Episode 20, "Get the Graf Spee", first broadcast 25 March 1962. J S Ayer (talk) 02:28, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

No, ranks are not capitalised

@SteveCrook: No, per MOS:MILTERMS ("John Smith was a brigadier general."); no, per MOS:JOBTITLES; no, per oxforddictionaries.com, which shows "captain" to be a common noun. Wikipedia generally capitalizes proper names and the first word of a sentence, and nothing else. The rank "Kapitän zur See" is capitalized because it is German, and all nouns are capitalized in the German language. The word "captain" is capitalized when it is treated as part of a person's name ("pistol used by Captain Hans Langsdorff"), but not otherwise. Chris the speller ^yack 20:14, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Seeing how rarely some people get around to editing Wikipedia, I will make the corrections myself. Chris the speller ^yack 22:24, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

But Hans Langsdorff was German -- SteveCrook (talk) 12:04, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Biography of living person?!?

Is Langsdorff's 1939 death in dispute? Does anyone really think that he is still alive in 2018, aged 124?

Assuming not... why is this article badged as a biography of a living person? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.19.154.18 (talk) 08:32, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Someone applied the wrong tag a week or so ago. Corrected now. Thanks for letting us know. --David Biddulph (talk) 08:45, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Family and Claims of being an "Ardent Nazi"

The family section of this article uses intentionally-misleading information to imply that Hans Langsdorff was an "Ardent Nazi" when nearly all historical sources agree that he was not.

One such section can be found in the "Family" section. The article cited claims that Langsdorff stated the Fuhrer was a "prophet" and conveniently omits the original author's next two sentences which make it clear the Langsdorff was clearly NOT an ardent Nazi. Quote: "All Langsdorff's actions as captain of the Graf Spee show that he was a decent, honourable and compassionate man. He was almost certainly not a member of the Nazi Party but, nevertheless, it is very unlikely that a loyal officer of the Kriegsmarine... would run down his head of state ... to a foreigner and, in particular, a citizen of a state with which his country was at war."

Bad enough that the editor of this page omitted that portion, but then this same editor also claims in the "career" section that there is "ample evidence" that he was, in fact, an ardent supporter of Hitler despite utilizing a source that demonstrably argues AGAINST that being the case. This is simple cherry-picking - and not proper research methodology.

I have also been made aware that the same person who edited these sections then cited them in the Town of Ajax (Langsdorff Drive) debate held on November 16th, making the cherry-picking of the source material even more offensive as it was for political gain.

There is not ample evidence that Langsdorff was an "ardent supporter" of Hitler. In fact, all available evidence points to the contrary.

Sadly when I attempted to correct this sections and remove the politically-charged misinformation, the change was quickly reverted back to the version which contradicts itself.

I cite the following sources:

"[Langsdorff] was almost certainly not a member of Nazi Party..." - from the editor's own source.

""It's a shame," an Israeli specialist in Nazi affairs said. "Langsdorff and most of his crew were military men but not Nazis." - New York Times, 1970.

Otrex (talk) 10:53, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

I do note that a few minutes after posting this article, the party who dissented to my edits has reversed their position. Thank you for your prompt review of the source material. May I suggest an article lock for the present time since, as I mentioned, someone who is connected with the original misinformation cherry-picked then utilized said edits in a Town Hall meeting to have Captain Langsdorffs name removed from a street, citing those quotes as "proof". The motion to strike his name passed 4-3 and this Wikipedia page may have had something to do with it considering the misinformation had been posted for some time and certain parties relied on it without checking the source material.

Otrex (talk) 11:10, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

References